Undocumented recipients of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program once again face an uncertain future. This uncertainty is linked in part to a lack of information provided by our elected officials.

When DACA recipients are subjected to political rhetoric, politicians on both sides of the issue fail to address the economic and cultural impact they’ve made in Texas and the United States.

In 2001, then Texas Gov. Rick Perry signed the Texas Dream Act into state law. The bill allowed undocumented students to pay in-state tuition if they had resided in Texas for an extended amount of time.

10 years later at a 2011 presidential debate, the former governor said, “If you say that we should not educate children who have come into our state for no other reason than they’ve been brought there by no fault of their own, I don’t think you have a heart.”

Though he has not called on repealing their education access entirely, Rep. Kyle Biedermann, R-Texas, is proposing HB 413, a house bill that would force undocumented students to pay for out-of-state tuition instead of the previous in-state fee.

Biedermann said the reason for the proposed bill was to help protect Texas taxpayers. The Texas Dream Act helps serve undocumented students at the expense of those who are legally here.

The proposed bill is a stark contrast to the previous policies implemented by Perry. Yet politicians from both sides of the issue failed to mention that undocumented immigrants contribute to the Texas economy through paid tuition, taxes, employment and more.

A study by the Center for Public Policy Priorities shows that of the 149,914 Texas students who do apply for financial assistance, just 2,678 are DACA students. Additionally, DACA recipients receive a grant total of $10.97 million.

The cost is easily covered by the $1.5 billion in taxes undocumented immigrants pay annually.

These numbers are proof that documented Texas residents are not footing the bill. Unfortunately, the contributions made by these students to our state financially and culturally are at risk because of a proposal that has been presented with false notions.

It is unfair to students and unfair to taxpayers. Both documented and undocumented.

The Shorthorn Editorial Board is made up of opinion editor Jacob Reyes; Editor-in-Chief Reese Oxner; associate news editor Amanda Padilla; Carmina Tiscareño, life and entertainment editor; social media editor Narda Pérez; Shay Cohen, copy editor and multimedia journalist; and Zaria Turner, life and entertainment reporter.

@utashorthorn

opinion-editor.shorthorn@uta.edu

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(115) comments

BillyBitcoins

My parents immigrated into the US and Texas legally

There is nothing wrong with doing things the legal way!

UTMavThinker

Republicans don’t care. They have one track minds that refuse to see past logic or reason. You can try to explain to them all you want that DACA recipients have been here paying taxes along with their families for almost their entire lives, or that the “costs” of illegal immigrants being here are no more than any other legal member of society, or that they statistically commit less crime that legal citizens, or how any other number of debunked right-wing talking points are either misleading or outright lies; it doesn’t matter. All they will ever hear is “illegals bad, orange man good.”

But then ask them how they feel about the orange man’s wife herself working in this country illegally before she received a visa normally reserved for people excelling in their profession such as doctors, scientists, and Pulitzer prize winning authors, and they’ll be strangely silent. One rule for them, another rule for everyone else.

BreezyLovesMavs

Ain’t that the truth. Her special visa allowed her parents to skip the line too. My, how money talks...

Crcata

You literally just spew talking points supplied to you by not only this article but other left wing sites. You have been proven wrong time and time again how illegal immigrants as a whole are not a net positive to society. This is objective fact, even by your own false numbers you supplied lol. That has been the argument supplied in these various threads, you simply are creating a straw man, as usual.

UTMavThinker

Nope, I haven't. Keep believing your debunked right-wing nonsense though, because nobody else does.

Crcata

Yes, you have. Its not talking points, its the facts and the truth. Something you simply don't like to hear because of how hate filled you are.

UTMavThinker

No, I haven't. The only one averse the the facts is you, as you have proven time and time again on this message board. You've yet to supply a single intelligent contribution to a single one of these articles.

Crcata

Incorrect, you have literally and objectively been proven wrong twice in the last week. You didn't think there was any evidence that illegals have voted, I proved you wrong. You claimed Trump has never denounced the alt right, I proved you wrong. You can run way from this fact, from this truth, but it is here nonetheless.

UTMavThinker

Trump reading a pre-written speech by one of his ghost writers doesn't prove anything. Show me denouncing them at one of his rallies when the honest hate is flowing from his mouth.

And congratulations, you showed 19 whole people that might have voted illegally and would have had no sway over the election whatsoever.

Now tell me how you justify the actual election fraud committed by Republicans in NC that actually did sway the election to the point that it will likely be reheld.

The thing about what you do, is that you find some tiny detail that, while it may be true, is entirely inconsequential in the bigger picture. But yet you claim that tiny spec to be the final argument, when in reality the evidence showing its insignificance is overwhelming. But again, it's just a sign of how small-minded you are when understanding the broader issues at large.

Crcata

You don't know for sure it was written by a "ghost writer" lol, you are simply making that up because you don't want to face the fact that you claimed he never did, and I objectively showed you video of him directly doing what you claimed he never did lol. You can't be proven any more objectively wrong than that. If I show you another, you will simply put more qualifiers in front of it. "Show me him denouncing hate while wearing a pussy hat and a shirt that says smash the patriarchy" lolol. You were proven wrong, thats never going away.

And yes, I did! I showed you exactly what you said never occurred. I showed you proof of another thing you said never happened and yet did. You said "zero evidence of illegals voting". I showed you illegals arrested for voting. You don't have to like this, but again thats twice that you have been proven wrong yet you claim to be the informed one lol.

And its NOT inconsequential to the bigger picture. It IS the bigger picture. Why do you think democrats don't want voter ID, they literally say it hurts minorities because they are so oppressed they can't get an ID which is so obviously not true lol. Why are they against border security? Because they want votes. Meanwhile you believe that Trump and Russia conspired to take the election and succeeded without any actual evidence of that. Astounding.

UTMavThinker

You know nothing of the bigger picture, and your comments prove it. Once again, show me anytime that at one of his unscripted rallies Trump has every said anything disparaging the alt-right. Because I can show you plenty of times where he has advocated for hate and violence against the left. The fact that you can point to a pre-written speech as "proof" of Trump's character only proves that you are incredibly gullible.

And you keep harping about those 19 votes, while you've still yet to comment on the verified election fraud that republicans committed. What, afraid of acknowledging that it is actually your side that is the one trying to steal elections?

UTMavThinker

" Why are they against border security? Because they want votes."

The fact that you would put this chain of thoughts together just shows how lost and ignorant you are. Democrats want open borders so they can flood the population with illegal immigrants and then use those illegals to stuff the ballot boxes. That's an absolutely insane line of thinking, and one that no rational person would ever truly advocate, but here you are. It is exactly that mentality that shows how little credibly you have. If you honestly think this level of conspiratorial nonsense to be the truth, then there really is going to be no reaching you.

Crcata

I showed you exactly how he denounced the alt right which you said never happened. You moving the goal post is predictable but doesn't remove the fact that you have been proven objectively wrong. He did, and I know that angers you simply because its a narrative you clung so staunchly to and it was brought down on top of you lol.

The fact you can't point to anything to support your claim shows you as gullible, especially in the face of objective proof showing you otherwise. I keep harping on showing you something that you said didn't exist. You literally said there was no evidence, and I showed you otherwise. You don't have to like it, but it happened. Meanwhile you literally think that Trump colluded with Russia without evidence, yet evidence is shown to you that illegal do vote and you turn a blind eye lol.

Crcata

Its not conspiracy theories, its the reality of the situation. Dems are against border security, they are against voter ID, minorities do overwhelmingly vote in one direction. Follow the facts to their natural conclusion. Your inability to do so stems from bias.

UTMavThinker

The fact that you can’t provide a single instance of him in an honest, open setting tells volumes. Anyone can read a pre-written speech handed to them by an aid trying to achieve damage control. The fact is, when he was being honest, he said Nazis were good people. I know that burns you up inside, because he stated what you and people like you want to keep quite because you know that at your core, you believe it too. It angers you that the only thing you have is boiler plate speeches, when anytime he goes off the cuff, his racism, ignorance, and bigotry is apparent for all the world to see.

It’s really amusing how you keep ignoring the Republican election fraud that actually took place.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/12/18137552/north-carolina-election-fraud-9th-district-dallas-woodhouse

No comments on this? Nothing you want to say about how import you think it is to maintain the integrity of elections?

Or how about this: https://thinkprogress.org/mcconnell-election-day-federal-holiday-comments-40677ab50e48/

Openly mocking the idea of making election day a federal holiday to give people the maximum possible opportunity to vote? We wouldn’t even have to make a new one…just move Columbus day.

The only reality is, your words ring absolutely hollow when it is the active policy of the Republican party to suppress and disenfranchise the vote.

Crcata

I did provide him in an open honest setting, you have just convinced yourself those aren't his words as you will always convince yourself that he is either lying, or having someone elses words being said, etc. I objectively showed you something you claim didn't exist. You asked for "Just one" and I showed you it. Since then, you have moved the goal post because you recognize that you were proven wrong.

It clearly angers you that the narrative of him saying nazis are good people was debunked and proven objectively wrong. Yet its a narrative you need people to believe, otherwise you have nothing lol. You can call him racist, you just can't prove it. The reasonable and logic filled people see this.

It's really amusing that you actually continue to ignore the fact you were proven objectively wrong and still cling to these narratives. It really goes a long way in showing how easily manipulated people can be. You were given an enemy by the left and thats all you needed to have in order to allow them to fill you with false narratives lol.

He joked about making a holiday lol. Everyone around laughed, including democrats. Because it was funny. But please, cling to that narrative to! It hurts you more than helps you lol.

UTMavThinker

Nope, you provided a scripted setting created as damage control. I haven’t convinced myself of anything; Trump is always lying. If you deny that, you’re just denying reality as usual.

It clearly angers you that he said openly what you know people like you are supposed to keep hush hush. His own words outed him as the racist that he is, and it burns you up that you can’t deny it.

It’s really amusing how objectively wrong you can be and yet you still continue to cling to your lies. You can be shown evidence straight to your face, and you deny what you see. Nobody was given anything; Trump, and the people on the right that support him, have created the enemy that rational people see as a threat to this country. Deny it all you want, it doesn’t make it any less true or you any less part of the problem.

It wasn’t a joke, it was an actual bill, and Republicans shot it down because Republicans do not want people to have the right to vote. It’s honestly frightening how indoctrinated you are by the right-wing propaganda machine.

Crcata

I provided you exactly that you are just moving the goal post. You were proven wrong, it happens lol.

Crcata

You were given something you claimed didnt exist. You were objectively proven wrong and you ate your words. I know it burns you up that your narrative of orange man racist came crashing down on your head but it still happened and you will simply have to deal with it.

UTMavThinker

Also, when, exactly, when you be starting the petition to deport the orange dictator's porn star illegal immigrant wife, and her family? Or does she not count because she's on your "side"?

Utamavvet

Funny you sit there and claim people are racist and all these things and then say a statement like that. Not only against immigrants but against a woman and her family. Weird how that works

Crcata

Nothing about him is anything close to a dictator. You literally just throw out accusations, accusations that have very specific implications and qualifiers, hoping that they won't be called out or recognized as false. You couldn't even begin to justify him as a "dictator" lolol.

Radical leftists...call your opponent racist, call them a nazi, claim the president is a dictator, claim he is literally hitler, claim they don't care about women being raped if they question the 1 in 5 rape stat, claim claim claim claim claim but never prove lol. Astounding.

UTMavThinker

http://fortune.com/2017/04/05/donald-trump-middle-east-dictator-syria-egypt-president-sisi/

And that's just the dip of the iceberg. Trump routinely praises dictators like Putin, Kim Jong Un, and Xi Jinping, all while condemning our traditional democratic allies. All of his actions are those of a wannabe dictator, seen most recently in his holding the government and peoples' lives hostage in an attempt to force acquiescence to his demands. He thinks being president is the same as being CEO of one of his failed businesses where he gets to simply bark orders and they will be obeyed without question.

Crcata

Just like I predicted lol. You have no thoughts of your own, you are literally just quoting talking points. He has actually taken actions against both NK and Russia and been very stern in his words towards them. In NK case, he was literally verbally attacking Kim until he came to the negotiating table. Then, as he should, he changed his rhetoric to maintain the peace. Maybe you agree or disagree with him doing that. But you have provided nothing that hasn't been debunked on this very forum that describes him accurately as a dictator lol. You literally just throw out accusations from nothing and hope that at least one will stick lol.

UTMavThinker

Oh yes, he's been very stern with them, like his comments that he had, "tremendous assurance" from Putin that they no way, pinky swear, had anything to do with meddling in our elections? Or how he's had several meetings with Putin now where we know absolutely nothing about what was said because all notes were destroyed from the meeting? Or how he's refused to enforce sanctions against Russia, and now actually lifted them for one of Russia's most powerful oligarchs? Or how he showed up for a great PR coup with NK to give a photo-op for their dictator with a US president, while they now are threatening to restart their nuclear program after his "great deal"?

Trump is an absolute clown when it comes to international diplomacy, and he is being played like a fiddle by every single one of our foreign adversaries. Claiming anything else just shows that you know nothing of the world other than the torrent of disinformation being fed to you by Fox News and other fringe right-wing sources.

Crcata

Yes he has, I am glad we agree lol. Progress. He has taken action against both Russia and NK, despite being an alleged puppet. Your refusal to accept this is simply because its not the narrative you want it to be.

Is having meetings wrong? Funny, all this talk about Trump Russia and you seem to have forgotten all about the Obama mic slip lol. Having a photo op with Kim isn't bad, in fact its good. It is bringing us closer to peace. I know peace may be a bad thing to democrats right now, if Trump is the one bringing it lol.

Restart is the key word there, he made progress. Whether or not that progress is undone soon remains to be seen. If it is, that puts him squarely on par with every other president. So far, he has gone the farthest with getting closer to actual peace.

And international clown that has come closer to peace with NK than any president before him lol. A clown that has gotten us several better deals with other countries. A clown that is making china be fair in its trading with us and winning.

UTMavThinker

Did I say meetings are bad? No, that's just you making up lies as usual. But meetings with a foreign adversary, an adversary that actively meddled in out elections, where the American people have no idea what was said? Yeah, that's a problem. But of course you don't see it that way, because you would never admit that anything Putin's little puppet does is ever wrong.

And the photo-op with NK absolutely was a PR win for them. What have we accomplished out of it? Absolutely nothing so far.

And let's see, what else. Oh, just going to pull right out of Syria while declaring "mission accomplished" while leaving our allies high and dry? Where else have I heard that before, must have been some other Republican buffoon.

The fact is, you're just so deluded that you absolutely refuse to even consider the possibility that Trump is, in fact, not the greatest president we have ever had, and is, in reality, one of the absolute worst.

Crcata

I never said you said that, I asked. So how can i be lying if I asked a question? You see lies that don't exist lolol. Obama never had secret meetings? He never whispered in other world leaders ears? He never had an open mic revealing him to be closer to Putin's puppet than anyone? Lolol. You are so full of hate you cant see straight.

I dont think he is the best president, just better than Obama who accomplished nothing of merit in 8 years yet trump has been far more busy and more accomplished in 2.

Negan

38% of immigrant households use some form of welfare compared to 24% of native habitants. Immigrants are a burden on all of us. We are paying for them, they do not contribute enough to support their own community. We need to have higher tax rates on immigrants to offset their negative impacts. Everyone always shows the numbers that reflect a positive view on immigrants, but in reality they are a net deficit, adding to the national debt.

UTMavThinker

Be more of a bigot, I don't think you're trying hard enough.

Crcata

Be more hateful and uninformed.

UTMavThinker

Coming from you, that's a joke.

Crcata

Again, its simply the truth. You have been called on your hatefulness by even other left leaning members of this forum, and you have been proven wrong twice in just the last week. The facts simply aren't on your side.

UTMavThinker

You've been proven wrong with every statement that you make, and yet you somehow keep coming back thinking you're "winning". Your definition of "winning" must be the same as the orange buffoon in office that thinks things like completely ignoring the advice of his foreign intelligence panel makes him "smart".

Crcata

You have yet to prove me wrong at all, your simply give your own purposefully fact devoid opinions and call them facts. Meanwhile I have literally proven you wrong twice within the last week by providing actually evidence. Your best argument so far has simply been to call me a racist, that is about all the left has. Also, that "orange buffoon" has done better for our economy than Obama. Remember when Obama said jobs couldn't come back? Remember when he suggested Trump would need a magic wand? Remember when they DID come back? Remember when Obama tried to take credit for them coming back afterwords? lol. Can't make this stuff up.

UTMavThinker

Remember how the economy was on an uptick starting in Obama's term, and how Trump coasted into it and suddenly claimed it was all due to him the day after the election? No, of course you don't, because once again, you have absolutely no concept of the bigger picture. All you know is "orange man gud, libruls bad!" It's really sad, and really telling of how small minded of a person you are.

And I have proved you wrong, several times, starting with your idiotic and bias "FAIR" report. You peddle nothing but lies and misinformation, just like your orange buffoon in chief.

Crcata

Obama left the country in a decent spot economically, yet the gains seen under Trump are the best we have had in decades. This is by both left leaning and right leaning sources. Obama said it couldn't be done, and Trump did it. Obamas economy was objectively worse by all sources than it is now. Trump is simply taking credit for his own work.

UTMavThinker

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/31/investing/dow-stock-market-today/index.html

2018 saw virtually zero gains for the stock market. It was flat. Trump's trade tariffs are devastating segments of the economy, to the point that he had to provide billions of dollars in welfare to farmers to cover their losses:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/27/trump-farm-bailout-to-provide-6-billion-dollars-in-initial-relief.html

Literally spent twice as much money on welfare directly resulting from his failed trade policies than the so-called "burden" posed by illegal immigrants. And you're still trying to tell me that it's the immigrants that are the problem.

Pull your head out and take a look around.

Crcata

https://www.dailywire.com/news/35200/great-trump-us-economy-best-almost-four-years-hank-berrien

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/the-trump-effect-how-the-economy-changed-after-2016-elections


You can believe what you want but the facts show that despite the trade wars (of which we are winning by the way lol) we are still in a far better place than we were prior to him coming to office. Trade wars hurt, but its a pain we have endured and is starting to pay off as even china is starting too give concessions. Couple that with low unemployment, the lower for black people despite claims that Trumps is a racist lol.

Al in all, he has done a great job. You wouldn’t see this if you didn’t do the research yourself, as you clearly don’t. You simply copy paste talking points from other leftists.

UTMavThinker

While you copy and paste points from rightists, please.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/trump-s-tax-cuts-had-an-impact-but-not-the-one-backers-hoped-for

Trump's tax break did nothing for the economy other than put more money in the pockets of millionaires and billionaires, while ballooning the deficit. The economy had been steadily increasing under Obama, after he had to fix the debacle left by the previous Republican president in the form of the housing bubble. But that's just how it goes; Republicans destroy the economy with deregulation and tax breaks for the rich, and then Democrats have to come in and clean up their mess. Then when everything is looking up and people forget the problems caused by Republican leadership, they vote them back into office and the problem starts anew.

Crcata

Incorrect, I have done the research myself. I have read history and have come to the only reasonable conclusion that redistribution of wealth has never worked and has been the reason why so many millions throughout history have suffered. I also recognize the objective fact that it is capitalism that has brought America up to the power that it is now where even the poorest people have computers in their pockets and enough food to be fat.

And you can be angry that tax breaks to the top has resulted in even the bottom having more money…but it happened. You can call it crumbs, but its crumbs that didn’t exist when Obama was in power. You can put on your tin foil hat, or a pussy hat, and scream at the sky. But this is all true.

And if anything you said there were true about Democrats cleaning up a Republican mess…then why is our economy doing better than when democrats held all the offices and when Obama was in power? Why are black unemployment rates the lowest they have EVER been if democrats were so caring of them? Why do Americans across the board have more now than we have had in the past 10 years? Thats right….capitalism, Trump, Republicans, take you pick but they all get some credit in this.

UTMavThinker

The redistribution of wealth has never worked…what do you call social security? That seems to work pretty well, despite its flaws. You want to know what else has caused people to suffer? Unbridled capitalism. Ever read about child labor, the Great Depression, or slavery in any of those history books? Ever hear of the term “robber baron”? Somehow I get the feeling that any books you have read have had a very slanted view, just like everything else you try to peddle.

And I should be thankful for crumbs when the cost is the explosion of the deficit solely for the benefit of the rich and powerful? Are you really that deluded? Don’t worry about answering that, I already know the response.

So we have more stuff, therefor everything is better? That’s your argument? Just shows how shallow your mind really goes. The economy is doing better now precisely because Democrats have to spend all of their time cleaning up the mess left by Republicans. How hard is that for you to understand? You really are a dense individual if you refuse to acknowledge the basic reality of the situation. It’s hard to build a house when you’re busy picking up the pieces of the one your neighbor burnt down the night before.

Crcata

Thats correct, redistribution of wealth aka heavily socialist countries or communist countries overwhelmingly fail and fail hard. It is the capitalist country such as ours that has brought us overwhemingly away from poverty.

Social security is running low so that was a terrible argument lol. Although I am not surprised.

The only way redistribution of wealth can work, if it is very little and designed strictly around assisting people to get off their feet and back into the working world in a country that is capitalistic in nature. Which.....we have.

Oh you mean the deficit that has been exploding for years now? Including during Obama? Lol. Its still growing, but now we have more. Hate it all you want, but we are doing better right now than when Obama was in power.

What do you think got us out of the great depression? Communism? LOL. No it was capitalism. I know what a robber baron is, it is you who is misinformed on that lol.

I never claimed "everything" was better. Again, you are creating straw men because you simply can't formulate arguments against me so you create your own to refute. No, I am saying that our economy is better...because it is. Your inability to accept or refute that effectively shows your own shallow mind, as much as you would like to believe otherwise. The economy is doing better now, because Republicans took office and changed the regulations, the taxes, and got us better trade deals. This has nothing to do with democrats, that is just a talking point they want you to believe but yet they can't point to a specific policy they created that did this.

But republicans can....the tax break, the massive deregulation, the several new trade agreements. These directly resulted in the economy we have now.

UTMavThinker

You’re just rambling now, it’s really getting sad. Go check out some Scandinavian countries sometime and tell me just how bad a little social democracy is. All you’re doing is repeating Randian nonsense, which I imagine constitutes the majority of the so-called “history books” you’ve read.

And you clearly have no idea how social security works. It’s always been running low, and yet here it is, still functioning, still not crashing the system. Your stunning lack of understanding is the real thing that is no surprise.

So deficits aren’t bad now? I guess all that whining by Republicans while Obama was in power was just what, blatant hypocrisy, then?

The economy is better because it was already increasing; you’re the only one that can’t come up with a rational argument. It was increasing before Republicans took office, then it flat-lined in 2018 when their policies came into full effect. The fact is you can’t do anything but repeat the same thing over and over no matter how many times I prove you wrong because you have absolutely nothing of actual value to say.

Crcata

Incorrect it hasn't always been running low, you genuinely just have no idea what you are talking about lol. It used to be trustworthy and reliable, now its expected to run out soon. You love just making things up as you go.

Furthermore, like I said its capitalism that has brought us out of poverty. Its wealth redistribution countries that keep people in poverty. History shows this. You are on the wrong side of history lol but we will drag you to a better America for all anyways as we have been for 2 years.

Crcata

The moment Republicans took office they enacted policies that directly effected the economy., and boosted it to numbers 8 years of Obama never seen. Yiu can pretend this isnt true...but it is lol.

Matt1711

Just because someone doesn't agree with you it does not make them a bigot or a racist. Get over yourself and actually argue with facts not "orange man bad". It really plays into why people see the left as hateful because people like you can't accept a difference of opinion. You call yourself UTMavThinker then allow others to think and have a different opinion without having to be called a racist or bigot

UTMavThinker

Because it's not opinion; it's fact. You can't say "it's just your opinion that illegal immigrants cause huge burdens to our society and therefor they should all be removed" while ignoring the facts that we pay far more in corporate welfare and subsidies than immigrants will ever cost. It's scapegoating and ignoring the larger picture, which is exactly what people on the right do day-in, day-out.

Crcata

Its not scapegoating at all, its pointing directly to the problem. You simply refuse to accept the truth.

UTMavThinker

And you refuse to accept reality.

Crcata

No, it is you who refuses to accept reality.

UTMavThinker

Wrong again, but that's just how you roll. Does it feel good just going through life being wrong about everything?

Crcata

Yet I've proven you wrong twice this week and made you eat your own words. Its astounding how confident in being wrong you are lol.

Matt1711

Actually you can because "it's just your opinion that illegal immigrants cause huge burdens to our society and therefor they should all be removed" is literally an opinion. If you want to argue you can't have that opinion because the government spends more on corporations then that is a dumb argument. That would be like me saying people can't have a different opinion that argues "illegal immigrants are good because they pay taxes" and me saying well that opinion is invalid because the U.S. citizens pay more taxes!!

BreezyLovesMavs

I don’t know where you’re getting your figures from, but SNAP/TANF/food stamps and any other programs established to assist the poor are not received by 38% of immigrant households vs. 24% native inhabitants. Since they do pay taxes, and they will never be able to use Medicare or Social Security, they’re paying into a bucket that will only be for the Americans who make it to even get Medicare or Social Security. That’s a net positive. You forget that the Waltons have stores around this country and love to make their stores locally relevant. Sales taxes apply to the immigrant population too. They put their dollars back into our local economies, sometimes the pockets of just a handful, but most often back into the white corporate economy since that’s what we’re surrounded by. Do you think immigrants go to work and then only spend their money within immigrant communities,? That would be wishful thinking, but even if that were the case, one would still have to pay sales taxes. Stop the scapegoating. The worst thing about history is watching people repeat it.

Crcata

Its already been proven in a previous thread that illegal immigrants are not a net positive on society. This is an objective fact regardless of how conservative or liberal you are with the numbers provided. This isn't a Fox News talking point, this is simply how it is, the truth. You can believe that this truth is racist if you want, but it is nonethelessless true. And simply because we have Americans who are burdens, doesn't justify allowing more in to be burdens that aren't supposed to be here in the first place.

UTMavThinker

They're no more of a burden than anyone else, and in many cases less so. So it seems that there is a bigger problem in play that could be solved, but instead small minded people like yourself choose to go after scapegoats instead.

Crcata

There is nothing about my argument that is a scapegoat. It is directly addressing the issue of having a burden on society injected from other countries, people who aren't supposed to be here in the first place. People who there is a system to come in legally and stay legally that is ignored. These people are not all burdens but they are objectively a net burden on society. Again this is objective fact.

UTMavThinker

Everything about your argument is scapegoating, because the facts show that illegal immigrants contribute at most the same amount to the problems of society at large, and in most cases less so. You refuse to acknowledge the larger problems, and instead only focus on a small population because they are an easy and convenient target for your hate. Just like everything else on the right, you are only capable of seeing a tiny picture of the broader problem at large.

Crcata

Again, no scapegoating at all, nor am I failing to see the big picture. The big picture IS that they are a net burden on society. Again, this is objective fact even by your terrible source lol. I am not unfairly targeting anyone, I am simply pointing out that they are not supposed to be here, they ignored the rules and laws in place for them to legally enter and stay and are adding to our monetary and occasionally criminal problems. Your inability to accept this and instead just call me a racist is the real scape goat here lol. You can't face the real issue so you create one.

UTMavThinker

"The big picture IS that they are a net burden on society."

You have no evidence for this other than your incredibly slanted right-wing report. The only people who are a true burden to society are people like you that choose to scapegoat segments of the population instead of looking for ways that we could solve the real problems.

Income inequality creates poverty, poverty creates crime. Addressing inequality in society would have a far greater impact on the overall crime rates than if you were to deport every single illegal immigrant, and would likely be a far easier endeavor. But you would rather spout on about how great capitalism is, despite the fact that it is the greatest driving factor towards income inequality and problems at large such as insurmountable healthcare costs. Instead of addressing that, you would rather scapegoat a segment of the population that is largely defenseless and thus an easy target for your attacks.

Crcata

I have provided evidence from a great source and the best you have been able to do is refute its numbers of which even the report states it is using the most liberal numbers you can find. But at no point does any other report given with any other numbers given refute the argument that they are a net burden on society. In fact, even your own fallacious report proves me correct. Furthermore, income inequality does not create poverty, that is simply a leftist talking about. Redistribution of wealth is what creates poverty, which is exactly what the left wants and exactly what throughout history has resulted in so many suffering. Its capitalism that has drove us out of poverty with a status of poverty that is well above that of many other countries. The only equality we need, is equality of opportunity. Something that the radical left is keeping us away from.

UTMavThinker

Nope, it's not a great source, that statement is objectively false. It was a highly biased source from a highly bias right-wing think tank with a highly biased motivation. Your clinging to that as reputable just shows how stubbornly detached from you reality you are and how you refuse to liberate yourself from the Trump bubble.

And it's almost laughable that you want to talk about equality of opportunity, when that is exactly what Republicans oppose the most. They want less people to vote, because the less people that vote, the more chances they have at elections. The want workers to have less rights on the job, because the more rights they have, the less money millionaires have to buy their second and third houses with. Capitalism as it is implemented in this country only has the effect of reducing opportunity for people at the bottom of the ladder while maintaining the status quo for those on top.

Crcata

You can view the FAIR report, and adjust the numbers provided there to any given by any credible organization and the ending result is always going to be a net negative. Your claim that they are a net positive is objectively false. Its simply not true. Whether its 10 as provided by many left leaning sources, or 115 as provided by the FAIR report, it is always shown to be a net negative. It is a burden, and it shouldn't be. Simple as that.

UTMavThinker

Still leaning on that completely disreputable report? I never made any claim that they are a net positive; that's just more of your lies trying to put words in my mouth. Just like the lies that you rely on to try to paint them as a bigger problem than they actually are. You're a liar and a racist that doesn't want to deal with real problems, so you create scapegoats to blame your problems on others.

Crcata

Nothing about it is disreputable, it boasts the fact that it is using the most liberal of numbers it can to show the worst case scenario but by any measure using even the most conservative numbers you can they still show a double digit billions of a net burden on society. You can be angry that this is the truth, you can bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't true. But it is.

Crcata

Also, calling people a racist without evidence is about what I would expect from a radical leftist. "just believe", that slogan may have had its roots in the nonsense metoo movement, but it really applies to the left fully lol. You don't need evidence of claims you make, you simply call people racist and hope it works to shame them into silence. Those day are over.

UTMavThinker

Nope, I already showed the report showing exactly how flawed and disreputable it is, which you choose to ignore like you do everything else that points out how ridiculous your right-wing talking points are.

The only one saying "just believe" is you. You claim false numbers as support for your debunked claims, and just like your orange puppet in chief, you follow them up with, "believe me". Sorry, those words might work for a carnival huckster, but not in the real world where you need real facts.

And if not racism, what other excuse do you have for scapegoating entire segments of the population based on their supposed contribution to a "problem" that they in fact only add a minor contribution to?

Crcata

Nope, you didn't. You didn't even come close. Your provided a report that gave different and false numbers yet still confirmed the argument that illegal immigrants are objectively a net burden on society. So even with those lies, they still can't stretch them far enough to cover the objective fact that they are a monetary burden.

UTMavThinker

Yeah, I did, you just don't want to admit it because that's how sad of an individual you are. The report described exactly how everything in the FAIR report was flawed or misrepresented; you simply choose to ignore it because it doesn't paint the picture that you want.

And the final bit, which I'm absolutely positive you didn't read, was that it pointed out that even the $3 billion cost was still nothing but an estimate - the result could actually be a net gain, we simply don't have enough data. Which isn't entirely surprising, because getting reporting figures from a segment of society that lives in fear of government attention is understandably difficult.

So the real truth is you don't have a single leg to stand on other than the flimsy report of a far-right think tank whose stated goal is the elimination of all illegal immigrants. No surprise that their report would back their demands.

Crcata

No you didn't, your provided a report that despite being false still proved me right. Your own fallacious report if taken as truth still proves me right. It proves that no matter how conservative or liberal you are with the numbers there is no way to spin it other than being a net burden on society. No, I read the entire thing and it is fallacious but still proves me right lol. That is how bad it is lol.

The "real" truth is, you have proven me correct and yet you still refuse to acknowledge it. Simply because truth means nothing to the radical left.

Crcata


I have provided evidence from a great source and the best you have been able to do is refute its numbers of which even the report states it is using the most liberal numbers you can find. But at no point does any other report given with any other numbers given refute the argument that they are a net burden on society. In fact, even your own fallacious report proves me correct.

Furthermore, income inequality does not create poverty, that is simply a leftist talking about. Redistribution of wealth is what creates poverty, which is exactly what the left wants and exactly what throughout history has resulted in so many suffering. Its capitalism that has drove us out of poverty with a status of poverty that is well above that of many other countries. The only equality we need, is equality of opportunity. Something that the radical left is keeping us away from.

UTMavThinker

And again you prove that you didn't actually read it because you're afraid of what you might find out. The report lays out exactly how flawed the FAIR report was, and finishes with the point that a large amount of uncertainly remains whether there is any burden at all. But you don't like that because it makes the issue more complicated, while you would prefer to wrap it up in simple package of, "illegals bad!" For whatever reason, you simple refuse to acknowledge that there are larger factors in play.

Crcata

Incorrect, I did read it. It just doesn't make the point you think it does, as you have demonstrated it here many times you see what you want, not what is actually being said. Your report was fallacious and only did the exact opposite of what the FAIR report did, it took the most conservative numbers it could find while the FAIR report took the most liberal numbers and lo and behold no matter which way you run it they ARE an objective burden on society which is exactly the argument being made. There is simply no way to spin this, you can pretend that because there is missing data we shouldn't judge but that is foolish because based on the data we do have they are a burden. They are ignoring our laws and not contributing as much as they are taking while being here illegally.

UTMavThinker

Nope, it's not a great source, that statement is objectively false. It was a highly biased source from a highly bias right-wing think tank with a highly biased motivation. Your clinging to that as reputable just shows how stubbornly detached from you reality you are and how you refuse to liberate yourself from the Trump bubble. And it's almost laughable that you want to talk about equality of opportunity, when that is exactly what Republicans oppose the most. They want less people to vote, because the less people that vote, the more chances they have at elections. The want workers to have less rights on the job, because the more rights they have, the less money millionaires have to buy their second and third houses with. Capitalism as it is implemented in this country only has the effect of reducing opportunity for people at the bottom of the ladder while maintaining the status quo for those on top.

Crcata

Incorrect, it is a great source but I am not surprised you claim that your opinion what is great is "objective" indicating you don't really know what that word means. It was a source that used very liberal numbers and even admitted to that yet it has shown that no matter what numbers you use, conservative or liberal, they all show that illegal immigrants are a net negative. As far as bubbles, I've bursted your twice in the last week by proving you objectively wrong.

Incorrect, it is republicans that are for equality of opportunity. It is Democrats who wish to give bonus points to certain minorities when it comes hiring via affirmative action (which has outworn its usefulness), or bonus points on SAT's to get into the best colleges. Just as soon as minorities start voting as diversity as white people, there won't be a democrat party. They NEED black people to vote at the rates they do, they NEED illegal immigrants to break the law and have anchor babies. Because as of right now minorities vote astoundingly in one direction and that is simply because of propaganda. Propaganda that seems to slowly be losing its efficacy in this age of digital media.

Capitlism has the effect of bringing countries out of poverty, not into it.

UTMavThinker

And you're still denying it. The FAIR report is junk science, plain and simple. If it was sent to peer review, it would have been rejected outright, no need for comments. But you don't care about that because it paints the picture that you want with wild and outlandish claims about how illegal immigrants are destroying the economy. Except they're not. And if anything is costing us money right now, it's Trump and his failed trade policies, but you also refuse to acknowledge that because you're stuck in your isolation bubble where you simply refuse to let anything in from the reality outside.

Crcata

Its not junk science, that is just your radical left talking point. It was a study that took the more liberal numbers and applied them and even admitted such. But it proved that no matter how you run the numbers, liberal or conservatively, they show a net loss for society when it comes to illegal immigration. You simply don't like the conclusion it came to, and you hate the fact that you can't provide a source that actually proves the argument wrong. They ARE a net burden on society.

I never claimed they are destroying the economy, on the contrary capitalism has held our economy up despite this burden. Just pointing out the objective fact that based on both left and right leaning sources they are a burden.

Trumps trade politics is working, and I know that eats you up lol. He has gotten us several better deals with other countries. China is starting to fold and give concessions and despite the pain of a trade war we are winning and still doing well. Thats a win lol.

Again, as far as bubbles go...you are in one. No matter how many times you are proven wrongs you simply deny it lol.

UTMavThinker

It is junk science, as the Cato report exactly pointed out. But your radical right-wing addled brain won’t let you accept it because you’ve convinced yourself that everything is all the fault of the immigrants, and if they would just go away everything would be better again! You have absolutely no backing for your claims, other than right-wing nonsense.

Trump’s trade policies are not working; that’s why we just had to bail out our farmers at twice the cost of any “burden” placed by illegal immigrants. But that just eats you up inside, because you know how much it points to Trump being an utter failure.

China is nowhere close to caving, you know where they’re getting soybeans from now? Themselves and other countries. You think after this is all over they’re going to just go back to buying US crops? Are you really that deluded?

Trump coasted in on Obama’s economy and declared it his own on January 3rd, which gullible buffoons like yourself of course bought. But the real results of his policies showed last year, where there was absolutely flat grow for all four quarters. But don’t let reality get in the way of deluding yourself that your god-emperor is somehow the best thing we’ve ever had despite all evidence to the contrary.

Crcata

It is not junk science, even your own fallacious report failed to prove what you think it proved. The FAIR report simply used liberal numbers to come to its decision, however it also showed that no matter how conservative or liberal the numbers you use are it still prove the objective point that illegal immigrants are a net burden on society. You are creating straw men of my position because you simply can't refute the facts. I never claimed illegal immigrants are anything but a net burden on society and this is objective fact even by your own fallacious article lol.

Trumps trade policies are working. Thats exactly why have better trade deals with several countries, its exactly why our economy is doing better than it did when Obama was in power. We gave money to farmers to ease their burden while we are in a trade war, a trade war that China is making concessions on to stop because they are suffering in a way we aren't. We are most certainly winning that.

China is losing and they are making concessions. This is objective truth, you are simply misinformed on this lol. Both left and right leaning sources confirm this and china themselves do as well.

Trump took Obamas decent economy and made it far better. Trump found that magic wand and brought jobs back that Obama said was impossible.

I don't believe he is a god, I just recognize these gains we have now have nothing to do with Obama and are a direct result of the tax cuts, improved trade agreements, and deregulation that occurred when Trump took office. You delude yourself to believe otherwise.

UTMavThinker

LOL, “liberal numbers”. In other words, it lied. And its methodology was fatally flawed, as was pointed out. You’re just clinging to it because it’s all you have to support your argument that in reality has no factual basis. I’ve refuted your facts, several times, you just don’t want to acknowledge it because you would rather cling to your ignorance.

China isn’t losing anything, you’re literally just repeating right-wing talking points ad-nauseam. Trump thinks his strong-man bully tactics are going to work on the international stage. Well, they’re not. Global superpowers are not intimidated by a man-child that uses the tactics of a schoolyard bully.

And what are the impacts of the tariffs? https://taxfoundation.org/trump-tariffs-economic-distributional-impact/

Increased taxes for Americans. Just like the millions of people affected by the shutdown, the only ones that actually pay for Trump’s actions are the American people.

Crcata

Incorrect, that is simply what you want to believe. That study proved you wrong and you cant stand it lol. Illegal immigrants are a net loss for us by even the most conservative of numbers.

And yes China is losing, they have already made concessions. You dont have to like it but it's TRUE regardless of your inability to come to terms with it.

Obama did nothing during his terms, he was just there. Trump has given us a better economy than Obama ever could. This is also true by both left and right sources. Deny it all you want, but it remains true lol.

BreezyLovesMavs

For anyone who wants to read real information instead of Fox News arguments: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/10/10/2018-21106/inadmissibility-on-public-charge-grounds

TL;DR: “Table 11 also shows Medicaid participation rates were 16.1 percent (43,301,000) among native-born individuals and 15.1 percent (6,272,000) among foreign-born persons, while rates among noncitizens were 15.5 percent (3,130,000). Participation rates in SNAP among native-born, foreign-born, and noncitizen populations are 11.6 percent (31,308,000), 8.7 percent (3,605,000), and 9.1 percent (1,828,000), respectively. The rate of receipt of cash benefits was 3.5 percent among the native-born and foreign-born, and about 2 percent among noncitizens. Although these results do not precisely align with the categories of aliens subject to this rule, they support the general proposition that non-cash public benefits play a significant role in the Nation's social safety net, including with respect to noncitizens generally.”

BreezyLovesMavs

Did you just call non-immigrants “Native” Americans? LOL. I shouldn’t be laughing, but somehow I’m not surprised... every time you look at a Hispanic, just remember that their blood ties them to this land, regardless of borders, probably more than yours. DACA recipients, especially those from Latin-America, are genetically more American than you will ever be. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

UTMavThinker

That truly is the greatest irony of all. Anyone here of non-European descent has a far greater claim to the land than any western civilization invader. What's frightening is that even with that literal historical fact, you might still be hard pressed to convince a Trump supporter that they weren't here "first."

Crcata

More straw men lol. Like it or not, this is our land now, this is America where Americans come first.

UTMavThinker

So you have no rational response, just hur durr murica! as usual. Tell us, when, exactly, was America ever truly "great", and what in reality can be done to make it so, "again"?

UTMavThinker

Also, so facts are strawmen now? You really are deranged, just like your orange puppet.

Crcata

The idea they have a "far greater claim" is not fact lol. This is a subjective opinion, but I am not surprised you believe your subjective opinion is objective fact lol. And the MAGA slogan has always been in reference to economic success, and throughout our history we have downs and ups and he is referencing these "ups". And so far he has done a great job for our economy and has negotiated many deals with multiple countries that have us coming out better than before he was in office. So far, he is living up to his promise of MAGA despite having a ways to go.

UTMavThinker

More vague promises and claims, just like the huckster you idolize. Once again, tell me exactly when America was "great", and what we can possibly do to make it so "again".

Crcata

I literally did. Throughout our history we have had economic prosperity, and some dark days. His reference to MAGA is to get us back to economic prosperity and so far he has done a great job, or at the very least...better than his predecessor lol.

UTMavThinker

"we have had economic prosperity, and some dark days"

Sometimes good, sometimes bad, we make good again!

Once again, tell me, exactly, with exact dates, times, data, and societal makeup, when America was "great" and what can possibly be done to put it there, "again." Because all you're doing right now is repeating the lines of a huckster with absolutely no backing whatsoever.

Crcata

Are you denying that our history is full of both times of economic prosperity and times of depression? Is that something you are so uninformed on you need to be cited by a primary source? lol. Like it or not, economic prosperity is exactly what he was referring to when he spoke of MAGA and it is something he is making good on so far. He has a long way to go, but we are in a better spot right now than we were when Obama was in power by left and right leaning sources.

UTMavThinker

No, I'm not. All I'm asking you to do is describe in specific terms the situations surround those times of prosperity and exactly what methods can be reached to attain them again. Because anything else is nothing but hot air from a buffoon.

Crcata

Well good! Then you agree that there have been times of prosperity and times of depression! We agree! And that is exactly what he was referring to. :)

UTMavThinker

Once again, tell me when. Exactly. Give me a date, or a time period. Or are you afraid to for some reason?

Crcata

Why? We agree! That happened! Both happened! We are in agreement! Its a rare occurrence to agree like that but it happened. Progress. Both times of economic prosperity and times of economic depression have occurred like both me and you said and he was referencing a time of economic prosperity for MAGA.

UTMavThinker

Because you can't. Because you know that his entire argument is that of a carnival huckster. So either put up or shut up.

Crcata

Because I know my argument is simply true and you even agreed. I have put up, you simply want to disagree due to your tribal nature lol. But you've already agree with me lol.

Crcata

na·tiveDictionary result for native
/ˈnādiv/Submit
noun
1.
a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth, whether subsequently resident there or not.

Whats funny, is despite how confident you were about him being wrong...turns out you are the wrong one. Don't worry, I won't press you to admit you are wrong as I know that is futile. But those of us born in America and are American citizens because of it, are in fact Native to America. Astounding this has to be explained.

UTMavThinker

Very good, you can find a dictionary. I'm honestly impressed. It doesn't do anything for your case, or prove anything at all for that matter, but at least it shows you have some level of literacy.

All you've really done is show that you managed to miss the point entirely, as usual. You don't want to face the facts, or reality, so you create scapegoats and misdirection. You really are a pathetic individual.

UTMavThinker

Also, I assume, by your posting this definition, that you are then in support of any and every child born here being granted citizenship, whether their parents are legal citizens or not"?

Crcata

No, it you who missed the point entirely. You chose to ignore the actual meaning of native so that you could address a straw man and ignore his argument. But my point, again, was proven to be correct. That we are native by being born here. You can pretend that isn't the case as well, as you seem to love to do when it comes to facts, but it is true.

Crcata

I am for anyone who is born here to be considered "native", as that is the actual definition and my feelings don't dictate those facts, believing differently is a very left leaning attribute. However I am against the use of anchor babies being made citizens. There is a difference between native, and citizen.

UTMavThinker

So you agree then that children of illegal immigrants born here are rightful citizens then. Good.

And I'm still not surprised you're missing the larger point entirely. You've proven time and time again how small minded you are when it comes to seeing the bigger picture.

Crcata

Incorrect, I never said that. Again, you demonstrate the radical lefts tendency to see what they want instead of the truth. I said I believe that people born here are natives, that doesn't inherently mean they have to be citizens to. So no, I do not agree with anchor babies being made citizens.

Crcata

You can talk about the "bigger picture" all you want, but you have yet to even come close to justifying your positions. You simply call people who disagree with you a racist and insult them lol. When it comes to actual solid arguments and facts, you have none.

UTMavThinker

"There is a difference between native, and citizen."

I'm sorry, what? So we should have citizen tests, now? Somehow I feel that would backfire quite spectacularly for you.

Crcata

Thanks again for showing the readers exactly how you see what you want to see, and not what is said. I never said citizen tests lol, that was a straw man you simply made up lol. If you can't beat your opponent using logic and facts, just call him a racist and make up an argument for him that you can! Radical left logic lol.

UTMavThinker

"When it comes to actual solid arguments and facts, you have none. "

Nope, you just choose to ignore them, because that's all the right is good at: sticking its fingers in its ears and humming "la la la I can't hear your!" when faced with facts and reality.

Crcata

You describe yourself very well with sticking fingers in your ears and yelling lol. You hide from anything that you don't want to hear.

UTMavThinker

Still waiting for you to give any reasonable response that shows you have an actual greater understanding of what is being discussed.

Crcata

The only thing I have provided is reasonable responses. The only thing you have provided is a purposeful misunderstanding of the facts, and nonsense accusations of racism and being a dictator lol.

UTMavThinker

Still waiting.

Crcata

No your not lol, because it already happened.

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